Report 728
Report #728 Skillset: Knighthood Skill: Riposte/Coule Org: Serenguard Status: Rejected Nov 2011 Furies' Decision: This would require a massive recoding for ultimately a small effect and therefore we reject this report based on a cost-benefit basis. Problem: At the moment the skills riposte and coule only work on weapon attacks done by another knight. They do not proc on armed attacks done by monks. This report aims to improve the use of these skills by extending their effect to monk weapon attacks. Apart from the fact that there is little good reason for this disparity, monks also have far easier access to afflictions that by-pass parry and stance, and this report aims to marginally improve monk vs warrior combat, which is notoriously unequal. Solution #1: Allow riposte and coule to work on armed monk attacks, similar to how they work on warrior attacks. Player Comments: ---on 11/10 @ 02:31 writes: Aye, I am torn on this report. On one hand, melee based counters that work against warriors should also work against monks. For example, Nekotai ScorpionTail procs on stance and impacts warriors & monks equally (though, acro monks can springup against sprawl but that is a matter for another report). On the other hand, I acknowledge there may be some unseen mechanics that would place monks on unequal footing compared to warriors. The Combat skillset increases parry rate, but so does Knighthood through WeaponParry. I would ask the admins to reject this proposal IF this mechanic causes Riposte/Coule to more negatively impact monks than warriors. ---on 11/10 @ 07:40 writes: Which is to say that I conditionally support this report. ---on 11/11 @ 00:28 writes: Well in addition to the warrior vs. monk discrepancy there's also one between the warrior specs as implied in the title and problem of this report. HeavyAxe and HeavySword do work on monks so BCs and BMs get an unfair shake. I await the largest blocks of texts ever when double parried. ---on 11/11 @ 06:08 writes: Riposte and coule should work on monks. I agree with bringing BC/BM on par with AL/PB as described above. ---on 11/15 @ 00:38 writes: I fully support this report, though I would also suggest that ensuring the ripostes/coules do not trigger Harmony's Chuuti and Akhlum mantra backlashes is needed. These backlashes can severely hamper a one-hander's active offence already, and a passive riposte/coule which would trigger these auras punishes the warrior for the monk's error. ---on 11/21 @ 22:14 writes: Quick question, do poisons transfer on a riposte/coule? ---on 11/21 @ 22:29 writes: Also curious if riposte/coule also transfers afflictions... or is it merely a wound/damage counter strike. IF it does give wounds, damage, poison(s), and aff(s), I wouldn't necessarily agree with Ushaara's comment that it should not trigger backlashes such as BioCurrents, ScorpionTail, Chuuti, and Akhlum as it would impact like a regular weapon strike. Also, if your first kata hit fires a coule and paralyzes you, that's 3s of no mo gain which could cause a drop. Dunno, I can only speculate. Seems like I would need more hand-on experience to better understand the implications of this report. ---on 11/22 @ 02:15 writes: Riposte targets a random body part, is subject to natural miss/parry/stancing, gives 2 (not a typo) wounding and negligible damage. It can however transfer poisons that are subject to usual shrugging/successful rub-off rates and as far as I can tell, has a small chance to afflict with light/medium swing affs that is independent of the bodypart's wounds. However in practice, it is more common for them to miss, hit parry/stance, or do nothing. Coules I am informed are different, so I'll leave it to a Blademaster to comment on them. ---on 11/22 @ 02:18 writes: Also, since you bring it up, ScorpionTail is a comparable reactive ability but more effective, proning the warrior which negates parry/stance and boosts monk damage (with no potential downside for monk I believe?). With regards your 3s of no momentum gain point, I believe my point stands. It is up to the monk to avoid hitting parries or be punished for it, (see shieldriposte), especially since monks can avoid parrying more easily, but as a passive riposte is uncontrollable, you should not be punished for it. I would actually extend my earlier comment to include BioCurrents and ScorpionTail, as I forgot about them when mentioning Akhlum and Chuuti. ---on 11/26 @ 13:42 writes: ScorpionTail might seem like a good offensive ability on paper, though the opponent usually stands before the monk regains balance. It works to offset the opponents rather than add to Nekotai's offense. @Ushaara what about the counters of rebounding and Justice Blessing? Would all counters be immune to riposte/coule? How do the parry counters in the other specs respond to Justice, rebounding, BioCurrents, etc.? I would agree that riposte/coule should work against monks and be patterned directly off HeftyAxe / HeftySword in regards to monk counters. ---on 11/28 @ 02:17 writes: Ripostes/coules should never be hitting rebounding since it drops when your opponent attacks. I am uncertain how they work currently against opponents with an aura of justice, but I understand it returns 10% of your damage? Even if they did trigger it, 10% of negligble damage remains negligible - I did 2 wounds and 92 damage to Ceana consistently, so justice aura would hit me for 9 damage? Biocurrents on the other hand hits me for 429 damage which is significant. So again I stand by my earlier position, that you should not be punished for your opponent's error, and ripostes/coules should not count as offensive actions which trigger any existing (or future) backlash effects. ---on 11/28 @ 02:31 writes: Oops, misread Janalon's question. HeftyAxe and HeftySword are quite different in that they have a chance to fire when the warrior attacks and hits their opponent's parry, which is different to the passive nature of riposte/coule. In this situation hitting backlashes is fine. ---on 11/28 @ 02:35 writes: When you say BioCurrents hit you for 429, were you fulled deffed as you would be for combat? Understood regarding rebounding. That aside, how do HeftyAxe and HeftySword respond against BioCurrents and the like? You never answered this aspect of my previous comment. Riposte/Coule should act in the exactly same manner. Anything else should require a separate report so as not to bog down the problem/solution as exactly worded (sans comments) in this report. ---on 11/28 @ 04:00 writes: Talked with Janalon directly about her concerns and to clarify differences between riposte/coule and heftyaxe/sword. I believe we are now in agreement that passive counters such as riposte/coule should not themselves trigger the counters mentioned above. Hopefully this comment represents her opinion adequately, rather than me putting extra words in her mouth. ---on 11/29 @ 03:32 writes: Ush explained why the hefty axe/sword point is moot, and answered many of my other questions. Correct. We are in agreement about the basic premise of this report: monks should not be immune to riposte/coule. However, there is still some grey area. I was informed riposte/coule procs Justice & parry. It is hard to completely agree with Ush that riposte/coule trigger common counters (such as Justice/parry), AND be immune against monk counters (such as BioCurrents). It should be all or nothing, not guild specific immunity (i.e. the basic premise of this report). In other words, riposte/coule should behave like ScorpionTail in bypassing various counters & defenses, or act like a proper weapon strike with a chance to proc parry, Justice, BioCurrents, etc (perhaps with heavier damage/wounds). I would ask for the Admin's further consideration to this aspect of the report. ---on 11/30 @ 22:17 writes: I don't think that any passive recoil effect should trigger other passive recoil effects.